Do we start renaming universities now?

"ImmoralMinority" (araimondo) 06/19/2020 at 10:51 • Filed to: None

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Other than UC Berkeley renaming Boalt Hall, there seems to be little move in this direction?

What of Princeton’s school of foreign policy, named for Woodrow Wilson, who in many ways was the architect of segregation?

What of Yale, named to honor the slave trader Elihu Yale?

What of Stanford, named for unabashed racist Leland Stanford, who famously said this to the California Legislature about the Chinese “To my mind it is clear, that the settlement among us of an inferior race is to be discouraged by every legitimate means. Asia, with her numberless millions, sends to our shores the dregs of her population. Large numbers of this class are already here; and, unless we do something early to check their immigration, the question, which of the two tides of immigration, meeting upon the shores of the Pacific, shall be turned back, will be forced upon our consideration, when far more difficult than now of disposal. There can be no doubt but that the presence among us of numbers of degraded and distinct people must exercise a deleterious influence upon the superior race, and to a certain extent, repel desirable immigration.”?

What of BYU, named for Brigham Young, a pedophile and murderer who banned blacks from Mormon priesthood?

And what to do with FDR and his internment camps?

I certainly understand why we should not venerate Confederates, but I wonder where we go from here.

I admit a certain ambivalence, because I am not sure it changes anything. Do we condemn people who were simply of their time (which would seem to create a distinction from Confederates)? Or is everything viewed though the lens of today’s values?

Having grown up i n the 70s and 80s, I can’t help but feel a little squeamish because the renaming stuff seems a little Bolshevik, but I can’t help but be a creature of my own time.

I really don’t have a strong opinion on this, nor have I reached any conclusions. I am wondering what you think. Hopefully people remain friendly about this to those who have differing perspectives. I find it an interesting issue..

For Sweden > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 10:54

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The only school we need is Skip Barber

benn454 > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 10:59

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 Aside from the slavery/racism topic, the Confederates were simply traitors who instigated war upon their fellow Americans. Treason should not be condoned. 

vondon302 > For Sweden 06/19/2020 at 11:00

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Cotd!

My bird IS the word > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:05

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Unfortunately you can’t use the slippery slope argument, even if it is a real phenomenon . It makes it hard to discuss the merits of something like this.

dogisbadob > For Sweden 06/19/2020 at 11:05

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Bondurant is triggered!!!

jminer > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:08

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To be fair s treets, buildings and universities get renamed regularly anyway.

You bring up a good point about where is the line and that’s a good question. I don’t know the answer but there are serious outliers - men (I say men because there are so few historical monuments honoring women) that were monsters even at the time and their actions have had wide ranging consequences like Christopher Columbus or Confederate Generals.

This definitely gets more complicated as you get into it, some presidents likely even deserve less honoring. For example Jackson should be replaced on the $20 - he has a pretty horrific (even for the time) record on native american brutality.

This is all uncomfortable , but it also needs to be.  It is not easy to reckon with the reality of history, it is often white washed and viewed through rose colored glasses when it was brutal and violent and most of it should not be honored but lessons learned from it instead.

Fun fact- there were plans to replace him with Harriet Tubman on the $20 with the design unveiled this year but the Trump administration killed it. The process is still supposedly moving but now with a 2020 date...

haveacarortwoorthree2 > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:08

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“ Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

Aremmes > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:11

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If Beaver College saw fit to rename itself to Arcadia University in order to avoid association with female naughty bits, then renaming institutions named after racists, criminals, and/or otherwise reprehensible persons to distance themselves from those associations doesn’t seem as much of a stretch.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:15

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My stance is who cares if they do. I’m not emotional enough to get bent out of shape over a name (a rose by any other and whatnot) or a statue .

What I DO want is to eliminate anything from the Confederacy from our public spaces. Th ey lost, fuck em. If anywhere, a museum is where it belongs (with a big sign that says LOSERS) .

Realistically, it’s going to end up a bell curve. The most overtly racist with the most public recognition will go first, then the lesser known  racists no one has ever heard of will go next. Then, you’ll get ou t to the fringes where the public will decid e whether they care enough or not (and I assume this will be pretty regional) .

facw > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:17

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It’s a tough question on how you consider these historical figures broadly. My feeling is that you consider these people based on the norms of their era, praising their virtues (real virtues only, a historical mythic virtues need not apply), forgiving vices that were shared with many of their contemporaries, and only judging harshly flaws that were particularly abhorrent. I am a bit squishy on that though, maybe it is better to acknowledge that their flaws were often deep enough that we shouldn’t be honoring them in 2020.

I’m not at upset about removing statues (for the sake of art, I’d rather see them removed than pulled down by a mob ( at least the non-mass produced ones)), and renaming things. We should be able to choose which people and concepts we venerate, there’s no reason to rely on the judgement of the past.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:19

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...yes? Why should we honor the legacy of slave traders and racists? What do we lose by not honoring a legacy that doesn’t reflect the whole reality of a person?

ranwhenparked > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:20

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Pennsylvania probably needs to be renamed, since William Penn owned a few slaves at one point. That statue is going to be a bitch to get down from the top of City Hall though, glad that's not my job to deal with.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:21

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People don’t seem to realize that the best way to ensure the mistakes of history are n’t repeated is to keep it visible for all to see. Instead of pulling statues, maybe add a plaque outlining the negatives?

This deletion of history is  dangerously close to 1984 territory.

nermal > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:23

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We not only have to worry about buildings being named after slave owners , but also stereotypical caricatures of black people used for advertising. There’s syrup (Aunt Jemima & Ms Butterworth), rice (Uncle Ben), hot cereal (Cream of Wheat), and so on. Add in the recent logo change for Land-O-Lakes butter as well.

Next up on the chopping block ? Racist depictions of black people playing basketball used to sell shoes and clothing . It’s offensive and needs to go! 

DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:25

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I don’t think there is a “we”. If a private entity decides to distance itself from a person, object, or symbol that does not align with its current values; that is its prerogative as a private entity .

TheRealBicycleBuck > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:27

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Funny, I listened to Flood just yesterday!

We were discussing the naming situation a few days ago and I said that they are going to have to start renaming everything, from buildings to baseball teams in order to appease everyone. Discussions about r ace and history always lead to interesting conundrums in our house. My wife’s family is hispanic and were among the original land grant families in Texas before Texas became Texas . They lost much of their land to the King family (of King Ranch fame) in south Texas due to what is now seen as illegal dealings by Mr. King himself. They also have stories in their family about Texas Rangers who, like the police today, had a few bad apples who didn’t treat people kindly.

My family also held property due to land grants. Being of E nglish/I rish/F rench/and a few other things in there descent, we fought on the side which eventually won. I had a relative die in the Alamo. I had other relatives who fought in the Indian wars as well as the Civil War.

We’ve often wondered if our ancestors happened to meet, or perhaps even shoot at each other at some point in time.

We’ve also had interesting discussions about nationalism. My mother-in-law has let slip comments about “Mexicans” and “wetbacks” before. Her family, being recipients of Spanish land grants, never had an affiliation with Mexico and she doesn’t think highly of them . After my wife started researching her family tree, it was revealed that her paternal grandfather left Mexico City to avoid being conscripted into the army. Ergo, my wife’s ancestor was Mexican. Then we discovered that my wife’s mother’s family was part of the Sephardic Jews who were forced to leave Spain. They were given land grants as long as they promised to convert to Catholicism and never return to Spain.

I imagine that many people will find that the things they believe now may not align with their family history. If more people remembered , learned from, and understoo d the past, they wouldn’t be so determined to destroy history. We build monuments because of accomplishments. Let those stand to remind us of failures too. Erasing them from our memory doesn’t lead to change. It means that those people and the things they did, both good and bad, will be lost to time.

History repeats itself if we don’t learn from it.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:29

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Not really Bolshevik, times and people change. Should we be celebrating historical figures who were pretty shitty people even in their time? Columbus was thrown in jail and lost all of his lands because of what he did in the America s (hell he wasn’t even the first European to visit the Americas, nobody care about him until a group of Italians were looking for someone to celebrate and they happened to land on him ) , and entire war was fought because slavery was considered evil so I’m not sure how “product of their time” flies for the Confederates. Also INB4 “tHe CiViL wAr WaSn’T aBoUt SlAvEry”  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Statues in public squares and building names aren’t meant to teach history, they’re acts of ego.

user314 > haveacarortwoorthree2 06/19/2020 at 11:29

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Nibby > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:33

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BAN ALL SCHOOLS

EDUCATION COMES FROM OPPO

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 06/19/2020 at 11:34

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It doesn’t seem too crazy to me that this current line of thinking in general society (taken to the extreme ) could lead to Auschwitz being torn down or something.

I think people need to realize that monuments can be to remember something good or something bad.

We have a Fort in Fort Langley (holy crap right?) that was used by the HBC. It has been re-contextualized to also tell the story about its role in colonization. The local first nation also owns a store in it, which helps compensate them for past wrongs.

user314 > facw 06/19/2020 at 11:38

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Thank you, you’ve expressed this line of thinking better than I could. I am very much in favor of r emoving the statues of the Confederates, moving them to whichever museum/historical location is appropriate, and adding whatever placards giving context as is necessary .

This is America dammit, we should not have mobs defacing statues, especially since they seem to be attacking all of them, even abolitionists and African Americans.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/19/2020 at 11:40

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Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but this shit has gotten so crazy I feel we’re left with two options:

1) All those propagating this stuff are fucking morons - Most likely

2) These people took away the wrong message from 1984 and are actively aspiring to become Big Brother - Extremely u nlikely, but that little sliver of doubt is terrifying

user314 > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 06/19/2020 at 11:45

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Given that mobs have attacked monuments to black Union soldiers and abolitionists , I join you in wondering. 

user314 > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 06/19/2020 at 11:50

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I don’t think you’ll find much argument at this point that it should happen, it’s how it’s happening, and to which monuments. 

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/19/2020 at 11:52

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Auschwitz was mostly torn down, and you don’t see statues of Hitler in Germany. There’s a difference between not forgetting and intimidation , and all of these confederate statues were built to intimidate.

BigBlock440 > dogisbadob 06/19/2020 at 11:58

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Are they still around?  I thought they went bankrupt.

Future next gen S2000 owner > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 11:59

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The big problem, as I see it, and you touched on it, is presentism and context. There needs to be a fine line drawn somewhere. Confederate statues put up mostly about 50 years are the war ended - yeah, I’m all about tearing those things down. Let’s celebrate a failed rebellion to hold onto slavery longer when it was already on its way out worldwide! /s

Remembering the original purpose of Memorial Day, yeah, I’m all about that.

C ontext is huge as well . We shouldn’t honor acts that were out of line for their given time period but we should remember them. We shouldn’t bury them. We need them as painful reminders to teach us.

Take concentration camps and the Japanese internment camps. They are conceptually similar but distinct. They both served as a means to isolation a portion of the population. Granted, concentration camps were really just a waiting area before Germany killed their Jewish population. The conditions within an internment camp and a concentration camp - from what I’ve gathered - are worlds apart and not really comparable. The world was shocked when the allies found the concentration camps but not so much with the internment camps.

Again, context is important. No one is perfect and no one is purely good. Washington wasn’t perfect and neither were any of the other founding fathers. We have to strive to understand decisions and actions them made in the context of the time and circumstances.

This is why I think museums are so important. They are a dedicated space for the accurate recording and displaying of history. It is where is appropriate to have images, memorabilia, and other items from the Civil War, from the Jim Crow era. It allows us the space and information to process a past event in a holistic way much better than a single statue in a city can.

That’s my 2 cents.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > nermal 06/19/2020 at 12:00

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Ah yes, people being payed millions in endorsements based on their talents is the exact same as... racist minstrel  cartoon depictions of black people made by corporations owned by white people?

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/19/2020 at 12:02

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I still think that the addition of content to re-contextualize/re-frame would be preferable to tearing it down.

Monuments to the confederacy, with a little effort, can become monuments to remember the injustices of slavery.

koawaft1 > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 12:03

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Two points.

First our country is often the land of second chances if a person has made a mistake and they sincerely apologise and make effort to wright their wrongs, we are a forgiving society. I think if Jefferson could apologize for his slave ownership today 90% of the population would forgive him and move on and not want his statues removed. Churchill the same way with his racism. The problem is they can’t. Not all would, but I believe a number of them would truly see their errors and be sincere.

Second there is a local issue with statues of Juan de Onate. Great explorer etc but kinda a dick for how he treated Na tive Americans, he liked to enslave them or cut off one of their feet. There have been protests to remove some statues. If I were in charge every one of his statues would only have one foot. This would celebrate his accomplishments and educate about his attosities at the same time. What child on a field would not ask why there is only one foot? Btw I don’t think Onate would apologize for Jack shit.

DipodomysDeserti > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/19/2020 at 12:05

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Just a heads up, but a few years ago Spain was granting citizenship to anyone that could prove they were Sephardic. You’re wife and kids are also eligible for Israeli citizenship on account of being Jewish (you’d have to convert).

Kind of crazy that you’re wife’s Sephardic family ended up identifying more with Spain. I have Sephardic students from Mexico and they very much identify as Mexicans, and their families  still hold a deep seated suspicion of Spain. They never converted to Christianity, so that might have a lot to do with it.

BigBlock440 > nermal 06/19/2020 at 12:06

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Mrs. Butterworth’s is blackface only, like Rachael D o lzeal.

TheRealBicycleBuck > DipodomysDeserti 06/19/2020 at 12:19

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That’s interesting! My wife has talked about going to Spain for years. Perhaps we’ll find a way to make the trip! As for being Jewish, she may have it in her heritage, but it was a recent revelation and it’s not in her heart. There was that one crazy great-uncle everyone thought was a satanist because of the secret room in his house. After his death, t hey discovered that he was a practicing Jew and the room had an altar in it. It wasn’t until after my wife discovered the family history that it made any sense. As far as anyone else knew, the entire family had been Catholic since they came over from Spain.

fintail > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/19/2020 at 12:23

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Oh those liberal “weenies”! We need coddled overprivileged right wing strongmen to show the way!

fintail > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/19/2020 at 12:27

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Many of these monuments belong in museums, not in public squares with scowling faces and their backs turned towards the direction that kicked their asses and dragged their slave-owning shitholes into the modern world. I don’t think Canada has anything close to the backwards parts of the American south, who’s reluctance to move on with their monuments is responsible for the idea maybe going off the rails a bit.

I’ve been to Germany many times, I don’t recall any status of Goebbels with his back turned towards England.

fintail > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 06/19/2020 at 12:28

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Or put it in museums and outside of public squares.

Had the south followed reason ages ago, none of this would be happening now.  Another mess created by the regressives.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > user314 06/19/2020 at 12:31

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Great point

The Snowman > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 12:52

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“sends to our shores the dregs of her population”

“We have people coming into the country or trying to come in, we’re stopping a lot of them, but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are,”

“These aren’t people. These are animals.”

Racists are going to be racist. Some have just learned to be vague enough to make some of the country question their motive.

dogisbadob > BigBlock440 06/19/2020 at 12:59

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oh I didn’t know that. never mind :|

CompactLuxuryFan > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 13:13

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“ Stanford” is actually Leland Stanford Junior University, named after the son who died at 16 before growing into his full awful potential, surely. At least the parents did actively start the university, so having their name attached is  directly their legacy. Most buildings and streets (and Yale) have been named or renamed in honor of people who had no direct relation to whatever was being named. So doing the rename there is more of a no-brainer.

DipodomysDeserti > BigBlock440 06/19/2020 at 13:19

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https://bondurant.com/

nermal > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/19/2020 at 14:03

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So it’s ok as long as you pay somebody? In that case, the original Aunt Jemima was a real person, who after an unfortunate run in with the Clintons was succeeded by other paid pancake product promot ers .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Green

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Jemima

On the other hand, Jordan shoes are made by Nike, which was founded by and is still run by a bazillionaire old white guy. Nike has a long history of  using prominent black people to sell shoes made by children in shithole countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Knight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_sweatshops

BigBlock440 > dogisbadob 06/19/2020 at 14:29

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Looks like they reopened not too long after they filed for bankruptcy, guess I missed it.

DipodomysDeserti > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/19/2020 at 14:33

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“ It doesn’t seem too crazy to me that this current line of thinking in general society (taken to the extreme) could lead to Auschwitz being torn down or something.”

The Auschwitz complex was mostly torn down and the materials repurposed. What remains was turned into a museum, not a monument, to inform the public about what happened there.

Also, since people seem to be up in arms about the Bolsheviks changing names of things, the Red Army were the ones who liberated Auschwitz.

“ They did not greet us, nor did they smile; they seemed oppressed not only by compassion but by a confused restraint, which sealed their lips and bound their eyes to the funereal scene. It was that shame we knew so well, the shame that drowned us after the selections, and every time we had to watch, or submit to, some outrage: the shame the Germans did not know, that the just man experiences at another man’s crime; the feeling of guilt that such a crime should exist, that it should have been introduced irrevocably into the world of things that exist, and that his will for good should have proved too weak or null, and should not have availed in defence.”

- Primo Levi, “ If this is a Man”

Old-Busted-Hotness > ImmoralMinority 06/19/2020 at 15:48

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I’m waiting for the outrage to commence over Jefferson having a big marble building in DC and his home a national park . Sure as eggs is eggs, that outrage will come. At some point, a man’s deeds must outweigh ownership of slaves.